SPOILER: There Is Not A Door On Top Of The Vista
May 26, 2016
During one of the podcast I mentioned we were having some design issues about halfway through Act 1 and we were trying to find a good fix. I can excitedly proclaim our design demons slayed and here is what happened.
I'm going to try and be as spoiler free as I can, so excuse me if I mask some of the puzzles by calling them "doors". I promise that Thimbleweed Park is more exciting than finding keys to open a bunch of doors, but at it's core, that's what adventure games are. Sometimes during early design we will just call a puzzle a key and door. All that really means is something is blocking the way (the door) and something is needed to get past (the key). We'll figure out something more interesting later (like a rubber chicken with a pulley in the middle).
Of course, sometimes there is just a door and a key. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
There is this point Thimbleweed Park where the world opens up. It happens about halfway though Act 1. Imagine chartering Dread's ship in Monkey 2 and you'll get the idea. The game starts out and players are pretty focused on the body and finding the killer, then they come to the vista and see the amazing panorama of locations they can travel to. Excitement takes over and they rush to the trail only to be stopped by a "door".
Remember back in paragraph two when I said I would use "door" as metaphors for puzzles to avoid spoilers? This is one of those cases. There is not a door on top of the vista. SPOILER: There is not a door on top of the vista.
When you present the opportunity to visit so many lovely locations, you can hardly blame players for forgetting about the pesky body and turning all their attention to the door on top of the vista, and that is exactly what they do.
Hours of hilarious and riveting gameplay later...
Players find the key (which isn't really a key) to the door (which isn't really a door) and they head out into the vastness of Thimbleweed County.
And they are lost. Not lost in the sense of which way is north or how do I get back to town, but lost in the sense that they totally forgot about the body and all the clues that were being laid.
I struggled with a lot of solutions to this problem, including making the door less sexy or forcing attention to the body (but who can resist a sexy door). In the end, I decide to leave everything as it was and add a small cut-scene.
When players unlock the door that isn't a door with the key that isn't a key, the second agent will show up and they have a conversion (via a dialog tree) and chat about what they still need do to solve the crime.
It works well because it refocuses players and provides a small recap. I was even thinking of doing something similar if you start up the game and it's been more than a few days since you played last.
Crisis number one averted, now on to crisis number two.
After getting past the vista, there is another door (that isn't a door... do I need to keep saying this) you need to get through. The problem with this door is that it isn't a very sexy door. Unlike the sexy vista door that you can see treasure behind, players have no idea what is behind this door. It's just a door. And to make matters worse, it's a door they saw very early in the game and probably forgot about. The key to this door is beyond the vista, so it couldn't have been opened sooner.
Now that players are beyond the vista, they have access to the key, but they could care less. We don't want to tell players what is behind the door because it's a surprise. We don't even want to nudge-nudge-wink-wink it. We really want it to be a surprise.
So players get past the vista, solve some more puzzles and then they just start wondering around. Maybe they remember the door (that isn't a door!) and maybe they start to looking for the key (that isn't a key!) only because they are bored and it's a puzzle to solve while they compose their angry "this game sucks" post on whatever adventure game forum they visit too many times a day.
How to make the purposely non-sexy door sexy?
The solution was to put something else behind the door and tell players about that, but not the surprise that is really behind the door. Now players think there is something else they want behind the door (IT'S NOT REALLY A DOOR!) and seek it's key.
When they finally get in, they will stumble on the surprise, all the time thinking how clever they were, when in fact they were just being manipulated by game design.
"And that little Timmy is how you make a game."
"That's very interesting Uncle Ron, but can I go play Minecraft now?"
"Sure, whatever."
- Ron
P.S. The use of doors as a puzzle metaphor was only to confuse you, there is nothing interesting behind any of the doors in Thimbleweed Park.
Side note: I bought DOTT remastered last week to play with and educate my 6yo son in the annals of adventure game history.
UNEXPECTED SIDE EFFECT: he is completely unfussed by DOTT and begs me (literally begs!) to play Maniac Mansion via Weird Ed's computer.
FACT!
So, well done on that.
"No Milo, I said to get THE KEYS, not THE CHEESE!"
As a side note, thanks for sharing your dev notes to us. They are awesome !
Then again, maybe it did
wink wink
Now I feel to urge to listen to 'The Mosquito' by The Doors.
I like it when a "vista" opens and there are a number of new locations available. Having some gentle guidance on what I am trying to accomplish lets me know where I OUGHT to go - and then lets me opt to explore side areas if I want, coming back to the main line when I am ready. Less frustration, more fun!
I would love to have a recap after being away from the game for some time. I am constantly trying to remember what has happened and what I am supposed to be doing if I am forced to leave off playing a story-based game for too long. Even if this is just a simple text based summary from a game menu instead of being automatic, I would appreciate it immensely.
On a more general "helping hand" note - what is the Thimbleweed philosophy on in-game hints? This may have been mentioned before but I don't recall. I tend to like some gentle reminders _IF_ I am getting stuck but I know that everyone has different ideas on this. Maybe Ramsome could swear at the helpless character ("Why the $#@!* haven't you ...", "Only idiots forget to ...") if asked for help. I'm not sure if you can always seek him out though.
When you wrote about this problem, I exactly thought about the moment you can actually charter MI2 captain Dread's ship, I always got a bit lost at that point, the world of the islands is pretty large...
You know what would be cool? I don't know why this really popped in my head... But, if a well-established indie developer had a contest for one person to co-design and (to an extent) directly participate in the development of a project. Readers would submit (at their own discretion) their ideas for a game. A good chunk of story, characters, game mechanics- if an adventure game, some sample dialog and puzzle ideas. Maybe art design of they're so inclined. From there, the devs would take over. They would decide if the "winner" had any additional say-so over the continued design of the game. Anyways...Whoever gets chosen gets their name in the credits as "story by" or "writer" or "concept by" or whatever. Of course, they also would get a special copy of the game. I think it's a crazy, possibly novel idea that would get a crap-ton of people interested in the project and garner quite a bit of attention. I guess this idea would only work in a specific scenario- for a studio or dev that already has a bit of clout. Anyways. Just a thought that passed through my head. Kind of like Project Greenlight or The Chair but for video games- with a lot less creative control for the participant/contestant/whoever.
Life: the worst adventure game ever.
I see what you did there... ;-) That was a neat door.
"Sure, whatever."
LOL!
In the Lucasfilm games the character sometimes explains in such a case that there was still something else to do, while she/he is stepping back from the "door". This solution unfortunately gives the impression as if the character he is playing knew more than the player himself does. Therefore it's capable of impairing the immersion. So, the conversation with the second agent is a much more elegant idea!
[pun only through italian translation]
Nice 5x10 pixel antennas on the tower. And 3 pixel flies in Ransome's trailer.
Just make the body sexier. Who can resist a sexy body?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/r59j1vod3sa2jby/ThimbleScreen8.jpg?dl=0
Like http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Genesis_1&;
The modern approach to your 'doors' seem to be sliding doors (btw, my wife's fav movie) that open automagically just _before_ they cause any need for increased brain activity.
Great idea. Make it quick to skip so as not to be annoying, and a gentle 'now where was I?' For people coming back to the game after a short break.
i remember my own excitment when i could open a new door and beeing scared what could be beyond this door.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_DOORS
No face, just dialog.
I read the other day you were saying to those merciless execs at Disney that you wanted to buy MM and MI IP's, and man i hope you can do it someday, imagine a new Maniac! that would blow my mind so hard!
I'm very excited to see you working along Gary Winnick and creating another instant classic like Thimbleweed Park, it has the feel of the older graphic adventures that i grew up playing and i cannot wait to play it!
Cheers!
The Myst and Riven series comes to my mind, which had valve-and-lever puzzles everywhere. (although some of the other puzzles were quite clever)
There are a lot of different keys and I actually had fun finding the matching doors. And since it's a big mansion with a lot of doors (naturally) you can get away with it more easily.
I'm probably the last one coming to this party, but I just found this gem of a project. Imagine this, Ron et al. - there's someone on earth voluntarily writing software for the C64! If that's not an argument for basic income I don't know.
so sometimes a monkey is not just a monkey and a door not a door...are there more non-doors or doors in the game? or monkeys? grog? grog to open doors which aren't doors.....hell...cant wait to find out.
Played the game in spanish, didn't speak English back then!
And then it gets more annoying when you result checking a walkthrough and go "oh, it was that thing. How was I supposed to remember that thing, I heard hours/days ago."
(please ignore)
I recently started playing old LA games which were released after DotT, because i realized i havent played them very often. Wanted to know why.
Sam & Max for example. Back in the days i was all in for ditching the verbs, streamlining the interface and full screen art was so future.
The art has aged well (although i prefer direct 8bit art <=mi1). The dialogues and animations are funny.
But the gameplay. Most of the time i dont know what to do. The door<->key relation is deranged. Longing into the mousehole to get money. Using Max on the cat to get the ticket for the circus. Why? There are more "puzzles" like this and it feels like a sequence of monkey wrench puzzles. Lot of it is based on timing. Why should i drive away when Max is on the toilet to get the key? Cant he steal the key and the rasp without this stunt? Overall gameplay is too much trial and error.
And regarding the interface. Cycling through the options (pick up, talk, use, look, walk, custom object) is awkward and slow (i know about shortcuts, but they are "invisible". Options are also wired in the inventory, but this is one step too much). Because of this (and because of beeing a very slow mammal) i fail regularly at timing based stuff.
I now consider the best aspect of the verb based interface beeing the text line. Hovering an object tells me what it is and gives detail (eg. a book and its title). I can decide to check it out or let it be. Wheareas with the eye-symbol i have to check it out to know if it is important or not, and it may trigger lines of text i dont want to read (i'm very impatient).
Furthermore i miss full dialog trees, the use of symbols to trigger text is not my cup o' tea.
Estimation of full playthroughs (the higher the number the less accurate):
MM: 4
One time on C64, where the overall playtime was the highest, because i had no internet and the slow loading times.
Second playthrough via DOTT, then ScummVM.
ZAK: 3
Oh boy, the dead ends were a show stopper for me. But such a great game.
Indy3: 2
Fighting. I hate fighting.
Loom: 1
Odd game, nice graphics. (noncompetitive)
Monkey Island 1: 10
My favorite. Best art and ideas.
MI2: 7
Very good game, more islands but at times overwhelming. Back then nice art, now i prefer MI1.
Indy4: 5
Oh boy, this was the story i wish had been used for the film
DOTT: 7
Although very cartoony, the time travelling mechanic was superb. Last use of Verbs :/
Sam & Max: 2
Full Throttle: 1
The Dig: 3
Not 1 because i like the dark SciFi tone and the great athmospheric audio. I remember the puzzles beeing lame.
I can't say for sure if this is because of ditching the verb interface or ignoring some of Rons Commandments (12; grumpygamer.com/why_adventure_games_suck).
To close, i want to express how happy i am that the verb interface (including text line) is used for the game soon to be known as Thimbleweed Park (TGSTBKATP). Furthermore i am under the impression puzzle design is again as important as the story, which seems to be not self-evident. Therefore i hope more games will follow, retaining proven mechanics, with some refinements here and there. Because we don't live in the past. Amen.
I also don't really like these kind of dialog options.
Regarding the toilet key: You don't have to drive away, you just have to catch Max outside. Although Max has a lot of potential criminal energy, Sam (the player) is the intelligent one and has to initiate stealing the key. This particular puzzle isn't that bad, IMHO.
It's also nice that you can actually see him wandering around outside.
Yes, cycling throw verbs is annoying, but so is moving your cursor all the way down to the bottom of the screen and then often back to your original location. Shortcuts FTW!
Regarding Indy 3: Hey this is not fair, I don't remember any mandatory fight! (except maybe Biff)
Speaking of the grail, your're right, reducing Indy 3 to fighting is indeed very unfair. In fact, i like the game very much.
I tried to replay it on a tablet a while ago, and i don't know of a convenient way to use the fight controls. I stopped at the castle, because you have to get every answer (and item) right in the correct order to succeed (without fighting), which involves a lot of saving and retrying. Kind of Sierraesque.
If i remember correctly if you choose the zeppelin route you can't avoid a fight.
I think I always ran away from the guards *in* the zeppelin. And if you immediately crash the plane (to pass all borders) there is always a way to get past them as far as I know.
E.g. one you can show the signed Passierschein, with others you have to select correct dialog options. It sure is trial and error, like in the castle.
Btw. that ticket taker on the zeppelin is the hardest one to fight! (you have to do it to get all IQ points)
A ticket machine should be most intuitive. An application which you use day in day out need the possibility to be used efficiently (e.g. lots of shortcuts).
Games are somewhere in between. But since I play games often for hours I want to have an efficient UI and not being hindered by it.
I don't really mind learning controls, in-game or even outside of it! (Hey I'm one of those who actually check out manuals!)
So in games I actually don't really care an UI being most intuitive. But I can understand intuitive UIs being important to hook new players.
This reminds me of DOTT. I can't remember where I learned how to transfer items between the characters, maybe it was by accident? Is it mentioned in the manual?
And yes, it is a huge OT.
But I like interesting OT's.
This is interesting. I don't know if the dev team has time and will to join the conversation, but I think that studying the old adventures is a good exercise. I think they did this exercise a lot among themselves in making the game, but never together with the players.
Just one question: how the grades work? Is it from 0 to 10, where 0 is the worst and 10 is the best? If yes, I'm familiar with these numbers, 'cause school grades in Italy are like this. And I can tell you your grades are very low, since the meaning in usually this:
4 very bad
5 bad
6 sufficient
7 fair
8 good
9 excellent
If you follow this score, only MI1 and 2 have an acceptable grade....
What I did not get is why neither MI3, nor Grim Fandango were mentioned. They are (very) nice LA adventures imho.
I stopped at "the Dig", because it was the last classic VGA styled LA adventure. I know, this classification is highly subjective.
Furthermore i was late to the MI3b party. Technically it should have been in my list. Ok then:
MI3b: 1
Guess its about time to attempt a second play-through.
Grim Fandango is a good, story driven adventure which i enjoyed very much. But with 3D and its tank controls i do not consider it to be a classic point & click adventure.
As for being OT, i was about to ask for contact details to not bore everyone else to death. But you both seem to be interested in OT talk too :)
Still it might be a good idea to move the chitchat to a IRC channel or something like that. Especially if we decide to meet at the 30th anniversary ThimbleCon :P
Also:
Grim Fandango is a classic adventure.
And now it's point'n'click.
So it's a classic point'n'click adventure..., I guess?
Not that other thing which generates a unique constraint violation on insert...
@DOTT: I looked it up, its in the manual. RTFM FTW. Glad its a short read, back then manuals sometimes were hefty books.
@DOTT: Oops, didn't read the manual carefully enough then!
Point'n'click adventure manuals are mostly quite short, a little backstory, installation, some key explanations, legal stuff oh and of course, copyright protection stuff.
They are also often funny, e.g. the history section of DOTT, or Simon the Sorcerer manuals in general.
Other games like RTS with unit stats or flight simulators with interface explanations can get huuuuge...
It's great for Terry Pratchett fans and those who want to become one. But I probably would only recommend it playing with the help of a walkthrough.
Characters and animations are great, but it's super linear, puzzles are often wacky (Discworld-esque) and you can solve puzzles only on the right place at the right time.
The Puzzle Dependency Chart™ would be one loooong single path.