What Can We Be Doing Better?
Mar 13, 2015
Thimbleweed Park has been cranking away for coming up on 10 weeks and we've blogged about the development process 30 times, getting some great feedback and suggestions in the comments. It's been truly invaluable for us.
This is all a very odd departure for me. When making games, I'm used to tolling away in private and asking for advice, input and help from a very small group of friends. Much of that comes from me being a pretty extreme introvert. I like quiet and I like to be able to think about that I'm doing. There is a reason you don't see me doing twitch feeds or being a clown in front of a camera.
So doing a dev blog (if the BAFTA gave out awards for dev blogs, we totally would have won one) where Gary and I post about everything that's happening, good and bad, is pretty stressful for me (I can't speak for Gary), but it's also been fun and very helpful.
So... our question to you is:
What could we be doing better? What would you like to see that we're not showing or talking about? How can we make the Thimbleweed Park dev blog more useful, more entertaining, more insightful, and more educational? What can we do better?
- Ron
P.S. We won't reveal spoilers, so don't ask for that.
Everytime any of you share some secrets of the past (details on MM development) I am in awe.
Also actual design decisions, ie. why you chose to do it like this or that rather than not.
Hm, I guess this is pretty much how you're doing it already ;-) So one vote for those three things from me.
where you are gathering for meetings, things like that.what type of coffee you guys drink, chairs...
Pics of street dogs are fun too.
I wouldn't mind a few candid quips about the goings-on in anyone's day even if it's not directly related to the game's development.
I just think that Ron shouldn't feel he needs to add any personal stuff into the blog post considering he's already got a lot on his plate.
The updates are very much appreciated; he should just post whatever he wants to share, whenever he wants to.
I has been really great so far. Much better than what "you" guys did for DFA ;-)
Personally, I'm here for the code and the occasional never-before-been-told stories. So I guess it'd be nice to filters posts by tags so in a few years when the game is released and we're bored of it, we can come back and look at code snippets and art that didn't make it into the game and wonder what it all means.
I was this kid, leafing through print magazines on mass when Lucasfilm games were all the rage here in Germany. And the PowerPlay magazine was kind enough, most of the time, to see the hunger and provide interviews, editorials, columns and what not - all about Lucasfilm Adventures.
To imagine that I'd be here, all these years later, with the same enthusiasm!
So that people will say:
"What is that INCREDIBLE AWESOME AND SPECTACULAR Wallpaper you have????"
"Oh, that? That is Thimbleweed Park. You should check it out!!!"
The most recent thing I found interesting was that you are routing all the rooms and puzzles together with dev art (I imagine that is what you mean with storyboard version), before the real art is done. While it seems obvious now that you should test your puzzle design before making the art, I never thought of it being this way. Did you do that for Maniac Mansion and Monkey Island too? Maybe you could share some of that dev art...
There have been some small design choices we've backed out of, but those are hard to talk about without introducing spoilers. But we'll try and figure a way to talk about it more.
Thanks
I'm personally intrigued by the code examples, the brainstorming processes and what they lead to (always wondered, "how do they do that?", "how do they got there?"), they puzzle charts...
It's just great material, better than 1000s 4k videos that will takes ages to load on my hamster-slow Internet connection.
Some topics that I would like to see: the save & load games system (how the game state is saved, where, the file format...), how the graphic elements are glued together with the code to assemble the final result; the music system...
Well... you know, just do what you are doing, you are doing an outstanding job.
Thanks.
talked_to_guy = 1;
did_other_thing = 1;
And so on... That's how I imagine I would do it!
Most intuitively, it enables easy cheating.
I don't know to which extend Ron's going to say "Well, if they think they must cheat, then they should".
I think it's not the great deal for a game that does not have any online features where you compare with each other.
However, I think that people *will* fiddle with the save games if they're so easily readable.
And then it's probably very easy to brick your save game by creating states you normally shouldn't be in. Of course it's the users' fault, but I can imagine that forum threads like "I think this game is unsolvable... oh wait, btw I set that flag to 1 and continued playing for 5 hours." should be avoided.
Just create some kind of checksum with some kind of timestamp and filesize in the file for the game to check.
If the file was manipulated the checksum is wrong and you can start a nasty Cheater Animation :)
Your comment on the game not running outside of an IDE made me think:
What about developing the engine as part of scummvm ?
I would tend to think that reusing scummvm's existing features and build environment (which covers an impressive variety of platforms) would reduce development costs. I'm only an occasional contributor to residualvm and poked a bit in scummvm source, so my point of view is very theoretical.
The fact that there's an interpreter that makes easy to play old games does not mean that it would be easy to write that format again. And I guess that'd hinder creativity since, for example, SCUMM's operation codes are limited.
On what could be done better, I'd really really love to have all the code publicly shared in a public git repo, but I understand that it's not how Ron works and I know it'd put more stress on him.
Ie, it has a build environment which supports an impressive number of platforms (I mean... Dreamcast ! IRIX ! Atari !), is adapted to a lot of different ways adventure game engines interface with the user and use resources, and has a record of keeping old-school adventure games alive.
I'm just very curious about how it looks from the perspective of a fresh engine development.
Thanks.
If anything, this blog is real! Just ... keep it this way. Give out information and fun tidbits as you see fit, like you have before.
The very best thing you can do, is keep reading the comment feedback to what you're offering, and maybe have a dialog here and there if time permits. This interaction alone is what counts; undiluted by flourish and fanfare - this is the real treasure.
This sort of blog is what I would have wished for if I only knew it were possible, even when your earlier games were made.
To me, this blog is like a plain door to your workplace, where every now and then I can have a small exchange of ideas, be shown all kinds of tidbits, and maybe offer to make coffee or one of these other insanely tasty new age hot drinks for you people, on my way out.
This feels personal in a way. To some extent, it really is! Thank you!
But everything else is perfect! Great blog! Always looking forward for the next post.
a) A login option, so if you have an account, you don't need to fill in all the fields and the seckrit question when posting.
b) I would love to have a better way of identifying the comments that have changed since the last time I checked the blog. There may not be a practical way to do that, I don't know - but it would be super useful.
c) It's great hearing from everyone involved in the project. To the extent you can encourage posts from all team members, that's certainly appreciated. You've been doing this, so, I guess the feedback there is - that's awesome, don't stop :)
d) I think the higher the technical content the better. The code examples are great.
e) I would personally be interested in some discussion on the build process you are using, the tools, the flow, etc.
f) Most importantly, though, It is critical that you foster the fun and passion you and the rest of the team have- because that's what makes this blog work.
Agreed. You can't get too technical. After all, adventure gamers started programming their own engines and releasing games online in the late 90s and early 00s.
I'm not an artist by any stretch of the imagination, but it would cool to see some of Gary's work flows as well. Perhaps some shots of how he generates layers or a walkthrough of creating a character using the tools that you've decided upon.
More code! More sarcasm! Do what you're doing now, but turned up to 11.
Thank you for this!
The mix between art, code and concept has been great so far. The only thing I can think of to make things any better is for you to post more often, but there’s no way you could do that. Once a week, plus the odd extra, is fine.
Good work, keep it up.
I would welcome, if some questions regarding project management were addressed:
- Is it "simple" to work with Kickstarter or rather complex?
- What are you spending all the money for? Except your working time, of course ;)
- Any pitfalls regarding project organization?
Thanks!
That's a really hard question because this blog is the most awesome thing in gaming I stumbled across the last few years: I love the project, I love the posts, it's super informative and insightful and (which is really saying something today!) even the comments are all very interesting and not a single one was aggressive or spiteful. This project, including the blog and the community, as simple and small as it may seem compared to big budget games is something very special.
So if you ask what you could do better than my answer would be: The best thing you can do is to keep the spirit of this blog for the rest of the game development. That alone would be great. Everything else is just icing on the cake.
That being said, a few things do come to mind:
- I would like to see more additional posts from Gary (or is he still sick?) and David. Maybe that could ease your stress with the blog? Of course I do love your programing posts, but you should feel comfortable maintaining this blog next to the project itself
- An avatar-icon of the author next to the post
- If the site could highlight new comments since my last visit. Since you don't want to implement a full account magenement perhaps a simple cookie that stores the timestamp of your last visit would suffice? Most people would gladly add a cookie expection for your site, I think.
- Keep it unfiltered and honest - i really dislike how the documentary of some other project felt very "scripted" and dramatzied
Thanks!
What is your reason for asking what to improve? Do you want to reach more readers?
*hug*
and now get your *ss back to coding and writing :)
Then you put me in the sink and turned the switch on...
The things I have seen in the sewers, in the SF bay and the ocean! I could teach Nemo a thing or two about the ocean.
oh well... after 27 years I might forgive you... after all I am just a goldfish and not an elephant!
* hug *
(By the way, a great argument to include turn on and especially turn *off* in Thimbleweed park)
I guess it's not a big deal; I was just wondering if anyone else had that issue or thought it happened too often.
I love your blog posts (they are absolutely amazing), but it am afraid they are taking away too much energy from you.
or a video how gary is drawing things.
It's a-ok for me! Great job on both of you. :)
I'm captivated by everything on this blog (like others, my F5 key has melted, twice)
Thanks for taking the time to do it.
I'll add my vote to more technical stuff, as long as you keep some surprises for later.
If I may, I would recommend this guy's website, where he dissects famous old game engines and presents them in a fairly clear way.
http://fabiensanglard.net/
Also, if you have old photos of you guys from the pixel period, that would help the immersion into the Thimbleweed universe, as if it was an undiscovered LucasFilm game, lost in a drawer.
Finally, deep in the synapses of my auditory cortex, Maniac Mansion's songs still triggers a strange and comforting Pavlovian feeling of exploring something new, truly interactive and amazing. The challenge is high, and I don't expect the same with Thimbleweed, but I don't know your plans for sounds/music, perhaps you can tell us a few words about that?
What I would add you ask?
Hmmm it's hard to say... It's seems a bit stronger from the scripting side, (code snippets!! :D), than from other sides of game development, so I would try to balance it.
Here there are a lot of programmers (and I'm one myself so :P), but I think more on the art department (from concept to final version, animation tips, progress, character design, thoughts), more about game design in general (like some of your puzzle design posts at grumpygamer), story structure, its pacing, sound, voice dubbing, marketing, the press, events (I mean... you went to GDC, so... how that went? (Thimbleweed related))...
The things you guys are learning, the things you learned years ago and are applying here today :) Every bit is really appreciated
That kind of thing :) But I said... It's a great blog... I didn't expect an weekly post (or more!), and so full of content.. so, don't worry... you are doing great. :)
Well, one thing would be cool. When it's finished, it might be educational to read some retrospective project babblings. I think some might be inspired to build their own adventures and the info might help or just be generally interesting.
Other than that, I'm quite happy with the way you're doing it. Keep it like that and concentrate on the actual game.
Since you asked, though, here are a few minor things that you could improve on:
- programming updates
I'm a programmer myself, so I get the general idea with those updates, but there's often not enough code to really get me thinking about things. It's often just a "Ah, ok, that's what the script will look like.". So I wouldn't mind seeing a little bit more context there to get me more engaged. That being said, I know those updates might already be pretty code-heavy for non-programmers, so I guess you struck a good balance. The way the updates currently are (code without a lot of context), I sometimes almost don't need the code, because when you explain the ideas behind the code, I start visualizing my own code. So another route might be to just give more details with what you tried to achieve and how you eventually did it. That way, the amount of code could stay the same and those updates would still be more interesting (not that they are bad now). I hope that makes sense.
- puzzle updates
These are by far my favorite because it's the core of an adventure game. So just having more of that and maybe more detail (I guess that might still be coming anyway) would be awesome. I don't need spoilers, actually I don't want them, I'm happy that things are blurred, but getting glimpses of how designing good puzzles actually works always gets me incredibly excited.
Other than that, I can't even think of any way that you could improve and even those two things are very minor. So don't worry, I love the blog as it is and if you keep everything the way it is, you still beat out all the Kickstarter/Indiegogo competition for me.
I know you're developing, and that floats my boat, but hearing about how you might plan to market the game would be interesting. Will you try to do a distribution deal? Will you try to go solo? Thinking about attending some trade shows? Now that it's been 'Kickstarted' (I get mad props for that pun), there's a large demographics that has no idea this game is out there, but are ripe for the pillaging!
Also, the dialog interests me. Do you do a final run through of all the lines to try to tweak them for maximum cleverness? I know movies and TV shows have teams of writers that will tweak a script. Is it just you guys, or do you have a "Hey, we MUST run this by Jim, because he'll take it to the next level of insanity"? I realize this is difficult without revealing spoilers, but a high-level view of the refinement would be cool.
Since there's not really a cut-throat P&C game industry, I'd like to hear your thoughts on open-sourcing your tools and libraries. Based on what I see of the Zak fans, I think the German economy would probably tank the day of release.
Other than that, just keep it up. I know it takes a good bit of time to put these posts together, but we eat this stuff up.
Thanks for taking the time to share!
Just how the hell did Guybrush end up on Melee Island?
What could be awesome is a recorded conversation between you and Gary (or you and Ron??) talking about things. Game development is a weird, impenetrable thing to try to convey to laypersons (like myself), veering between code talk and design. I feel like some of that complexity is smoothed out in conversation.
That's just me though! Best wishes and regards!
The only things I have to say are that...
- I'm really looking forward to trying out some playable test demos of the game engine no matter how simple they are, even if it's something like just moving a character around a single unfinished room just to play around with for the sake of playing around and possibly discovering any glitches/bugs.
- Also after the game is finished and released, I'd like to see this dev diary continue on with a special spoiler-filled open blog where we can ask questions about why something made the cut but something else was cut out, why you guys came up with a specific puzzle or location in the game, questions about the story and if you had originally planned for someone else to be the killer, etc. etc. Basically an open Q/A blog entry that only those who have played through and completed the game would want to go to to read about and ask questions about the game and not have to worry about spoilers since they've already experienced the game and know the major plot events/killer's identity/what the solutions to the puzzles are, etc. etc. But I know too that a lot of these questions will already be answered in the "The Making of Thimbleweed Park" pdf/coffee table book that you'll be giving out to those of us who backed you at those tiers on Kickstarter.
Other than that, if I have any complaints I'll be sure to let you know!
1 - Posts narrated by the one and only Stan S. Stanman (wild gesticulation included).
2 - More anecdotes about how a specific feature, character, location, item in game was inspired by a real life event, place or thought. These flashes of inspiration are great to read.
3 - Periodic musical interludes from GT and The Suction Cups.
4 - Less stress.
5 - More fun.
6 - More posts!
Keep up the great work!
Also, maybe blur out more of the puzzle dependency charts. I feel that even knowing that we enter the pillow factory at the end of Act 2 is a spoiler of sorts.
Great blog by the way!
One suggestion for later in the process: when you cut puzzles or other content from the game, it would be great to see blog posts describing that cut content and discussing your reasons for cutting it out. Since the content isn't going to be in the final version of the game, you can describe it in detail without spoiling something that's going to be in the final game.
Looking forward to a demo. Maybe a test room with all implemented features and the most ugly game art you can come up with..
Btw, I would like to know how you and Gary divide decisions on the
creative process. How do you deal with conflicting ideas?
Travel back in time into 1995 and start creating Thimbleweed Park. Then keep making more adventures together. I'm quite sure that we would live in a better world then, everyone being rich and happy, living all together peacefully, and so on. And we would already have hoverboards.
Seriously, I really enjoy this blog. Thank you for doing a great job.
Second in my list is a blog with weekly posts on game development, a polite and insightful community of fans, and, hopefully, the possibility to contribute to the final product with a line or two... Oh, wait.
Great Devblog! And great results already. @Ron; what could you do better? Well since this Blog is growing bigger it might be handy to use a simple blokdiagram at the beginning of a new post to indicate about witch part you are blogging or starting a discussion. It might come in handy to use it as a quicksearchchart to skip through the blog by subject. It will also help to devide this developmentprocess into nice chunks.
Another thing I'm curious about is: translations. Right now the code snippets show hardcoded strings, I suppose it will change, but doesn't using an ID for each string reduce the "clarity" of the script? And what about the graphics? Will the sprites be translated too (signs, posters, etc.)? But this
But this is obviously something you're going to do later.
I love hearing about the development about the toolchain, and what you're working on on a week to week basis. Please keep up these posts.
I have always been curious on how people draw that 16 color EGA graphics pallet. How does the artist decide on the final 16 colors, and how do you dither (is that the right word?) to make "darker" versions of a particular color? Surely there are tools to help with that. But is the original art hand drawn, or is it all done digitally? I remember hearing about "markers" and early scanners in Monkey Island. Anyway, I'd love to see some blog posts that take us through the creation of that background image.
Thanks, Geoff
One thing I would like to see is more detail about the game engine. I am curious about which parts of the game are handled by the engine and which by the script. Also how the interaction between the two is done would be interesting.